Hire people who understand how to solve problems

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And Gini, I have a problem.

Gini Dietrich: You do? You have just one problem?

Chip Griffin: Okay. I have many, many, but this isn’t Festivus, so we’re not gonna have an airing of grievances from you.

Gini Dietrich: Would you like me to solve your problem for you?

Chip Griffin: I, I, if, if you could solve some problems for me, that would be fantastic because then, I might even be inclined to hire you. Not that you would ever wanna work for me. That would just be disastrous.

Gini Dietrich: That would not be good though. Yeah.

Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about problem solving today, though not, not all of my problems.

We’re not gonna solve any of them on this episode, I don’t think. Probably create some new ones. Problem solving. I wrote an article recently about the importance of focusing on problem solving as either the primary or one of the primary considerations when you are hiring new employees as an agency.

And I, I feel quite strongly over the years that the very best hires or folks who are able to figure out how to, to look at a problem and come up with ideas on how to solve it and ways that are reasonable that they can execute upon to get it solved so that they’re not being dependent upon you or others to do that for them.

And in my view, this is something that’s really hard to train for. Mm-hmm. And so therefore, something more important to focus on during the hiring process than things that you can send someone to a course or a training session or give them a book on, and problem solving just is not that for most people.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, as we’re thinking about what the future holds, especially with artificial intelligence. The things that we can do as human beings that AI cannot do are gonna be more important, right? So when you think about problem solving, that is one thing that it will be challenging for AI to do, but really important for a human to be able to do so.

If you can demonstrate that you can solve problems and you know how to hire for people who can solve problems, and clients are hiring you to solve, help solve their problems, then all of a sudden you’ve got AI over here doing, you know, the tactical work, but you’re doing the high level like thinking work that I think is going to help set you apart.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and AI certainly makes it a lot easier to problem solve

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely.

Chip Griffin: Than it has been in the past. Right? Because it can help you with the basics, like research. But the other thing that you have to think about is in order to get the AI to help you, you have to do a good job of defining what the problem even is.

Yep. And, and that is a key part of being a problem solver, is being able to look at a situation and say, okay, here’s what the real problem is. Yep. You’re not, you’re not focused on some symptom, but you figured out, you know, this is really where we need to zero in on, and AI can probably help you with that a little bit, but the more clear you can be about saying, Hey, here’s my problem.

Here’s where I want to get, you still need to have that mindset for problem solving to get the AI to give you the best results possible without doing a lot of wandering in the wilderness.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, one of the reasons I like, sort of, we’ve talked about this before, but the question process of the new business of the prospecting, you know, process is you ask a bunch of questions. And you do that so that you can educate yourself on the prospect’s organization and their goals and all those things.

Of course. But when you dig deep into question after question after question, you start to uncover things that they didn’t tell you at first. Like you’re not gonna say, so what problem or pain do you want me to solve? Because they’re gonna go, I, I need an agency to do this and this. That’s not their problem.

That’s not the pain that you’re solving for them. You can, you ask questions so that you dig deeper and eventually you’re going to get to that, but it’s the same thing, you know, with AI, you can’t just say like, I need a social media agency to be able to post five times a week. That’s not the problem. What is the problem?

So AI can’t help you solve that. It can give you posts for five days a week, but it’s not gonna help you achieve the goals that you want. So really think about when you’re doing quarterly planning, when you’re talking to clients, when you’re talking to prospects, continuing to ask those questions so that you can figure out what problems or what pains you are trying to solve for them so that you can elevate yourself above what AI is gonna be able to do and even help you do.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, as you say, you know, clients are coming to us as agencies looking for us to solve their problems, which means that, that we need to have that mindset. And you, as the agency owner, you wanna be able to delegate more off of your plate. And the only way that you can do that is if you surround yourself with problem solvers.

Yep. If you surround yourself with the people who know the questions to ask and who can look at it and say, ah, I’ve got an idea for how we can get from here to there. And it keeps you from having to be deeply involved in every single scenario. And that might be as simple as, you know, Hey, this, this report didn’t get done on time.

You know, we need to do something quickly. Great, fine. You, you know what the challenge is. If you’re a problem solver, you’ll come up with that. If you don’t, you’re gonna go to the boss and say, oh my God, we didn’t get this report to the client on time. What do we do? You don’t want deal with that? No, no.

It’s painful for everybody. Everyone. Yes. So you’ve gotta surround yourself with the people who have that problem solving mindset and, and the instincts to be able to, even when they’re confronted with something that they don’t know, right. ’cause a good problem solver doesn’t need to have all of the expertise in the world.

Because they just need to be able to figure out, okay, how do we go about doing this? How do we break this down into its component parts and begin to address it and begin to make progress, and that’s really what the essence of problem solving is.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s sort of like, you know, I’ll say to my team often, I don’t wanna hear problems, I wanna hear solutions.

And it’s training them to come with that. Like, and I’m sure you work that way. I’m sure that people listening work that way. And if they’ve had bosses that have said, if you bring me a problem, I want solutions as well. That’s training the problem solving mentality, right? So it’s very much like, okay, I understand that things are not always going to go smoothly. I understand that we’re gonna have some failure, and I’m willing to take those risks, but I need you to come to me with the solutions. I’m not gonna be the one who, who comes up with the solutions. First of all, it’s not scalable, it’s exhausting. Clients will not ever stop trusting, being able to trust.

They will never be able to trust anybody else on your team because you’re always the problem solver. So it’s really how do you bring your team along? And I think that’s one of the good things and it’s, you have to stay firm to it. Like, okay, it’s, and because in many cases your instinct is to solve the problem, but instead you have to take a step back and say, how do you think we should solve this?

What are some solutions you propose? And really build that capability inside your team’s minds to be able to do that without you having to say, what are the solutions?

Chip Griffin: Right. And I think that, that this matters more than almost anything else you can focus on during the hiring process. I mean, obviously you’ve gotta to make sure you got the right, you know, the right feel, the right chemistry and that sort of thing.

Sure. Because it is, we’re ultimately humans and we all have to be able to engage well with the people that we’re working with. But, you know, I see so many of these interview processes that fixate on proficiency in various things.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Like writing tests. And Yeah.

Chip Griffin: You know, writing tests. Yep. You know, back when I used to hire a lot of web developers and that sort of thing, you know, there was always a desire to test them on particular programming language just to see if they were proficient in it. You know, people are like, oh my God, you know, do you use Asana or a Clickup, or whatever we use in the, oh, you don’t, you don’t know how to use that?

Oh. Oh. I don’t know if we can, ah, I don’t really want to have to teach how to use a different system. I, I’m, I’m gonna discount that. Like, that’s, none of that stuff matters. Right. Those things can all be trained.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: And frankly, a lot of those things are being replaced by a lot of the other things we’re doing.

Problem solving cuts across almost every single, and probably actually every single role that we have in an agency. And frankly, even far beyond an agency, even ones where you don’t necessarily think of it as a problem solving role. I mean, if you think about designers, for example. You sit there and say, well, you know, that’s, that’s really not pro That’s a creative thing.

We need to know how creative they are and Sure. I mean, they’ve gotta have some, you know, basic design skills that, that meet the aesthetic that you’re trying to produce for your clients. But ultimately they are actually problem solvers. I’ve never met a designer who felt they were being given enough time for any project.

I mean, you could give them a month and they would still be like, ah, you know, I really could use like six weeks to really

Gini Dietrich: Yes, Uhhuh

Chip Griffin: fine tune my vision.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: So, so there are already almost always starting from that problem solving standpoint of how do you get this done in the timeframe that I’m being allowed?

And the reality is you’re never giving them a month. You’re giving them maybe half a day if they’re lucky. Right. You know, because they’re the last ones. Of the designers, I, I feel bad for all my design friends because they are the last people brought in in most agencies. And they’re brought in, we’ve got all the content ready, we’re getting ready to release this tomorrow.

Can you make it look pretty? It’s like it’s three o’clock, you’re putting this out at 9:00 AM tomorrow.

Gini Dietrich: Oh, sure.

Chip Griffin: Right. I mean, that’s problem solving. You’ve gotta try to figure out how do you, how do you still get a good result? Mm-hmm. Even given all of those constraints. And so you need to think about every role that you’re hiring, problem solving.

And so how do you go about doing that? Right? It’s not, you don’t just say, are you a good problem solver? Right. ’cause guess what, nobody’s gonna say no. And if they do great, it’s easy to just get rid of ’em at that point, because they don’t even know how to interview, let alone

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Right.

Chip Griffin: How to solve a proper problem.

So, you know, it’s sort of like a reference. I think it’s silly to check references because you know what? Nobody gives you a bad reference. Right. I mean, in all the years I’ve been checking references, I’ve gotten maybe one mediocre reference. It wasn’t even a negative, but you know, you kind of read between the lines and you’re like, eh.

Yeah. But almost every one of them is positive. That’s the names you get. Nobody’s gonna tell you they’re bad problem solvers. How do you find out if they are or not? You’ve gotta try to either give them scenarios. And I’m a little, I don’t, I don’t love scenarios because we all have a tendency to come up with fairly unrealistic scenarios.

Gini Dietrich: Fair.

Chip Griffin: But I, I think you can say to somebody, look, you know, tell me about a time where you had a particular challenge and think about it in terms of the role. For that designer, ask. So, you know, you, you get presented to it at, the rough draft at 3:00 PM and you’re, you have to turn it into a pretty presentation by 9:00 AM the next morning.

How do you begin to go about that process? Walk me through what you’ve done before when you had that same scenario confronting you. Because you can, you can learn a lot just from listening to them, and the actual answers don’t matter all that much. Don’t fixate on, well, I would’ve done this instead of that.

It’s more making sure that they can think through the method and approach.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: That’s what signals to you that they’re able to break down the challenge into its component parts to make progress.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I really like the, I’m with you on the scenario based interviewing, but I really like the, all right, like these are things that have happened inside our organization because of like something that just happened the other day.

Tell me about a time that you got something at four o’clock on Friday afternoon, you had tickets to the Cubs game, and you knew it was due on Monday morning. Like, what do you do?

Chip Griffin: Well, they had tickets to a rare night game. Huh?

Gini Dietrich: Actually, we have the Cubs play a lot of night games actually.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I know. I’m, I’m just so old, I, I remember when they didn’t play them at all, so.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. But like, what do you do about that? How do you solve that problem. And some people will say, I work all weekend, which I don’t love, but some people will say, I will give up the Cubs tickets Also, don’t love that. But are there other ways, other creative ways that you might get that work done so that you’re not working all weekend and you don’t have to give up your Cubs tickets?

So those are the kinds of things that I like to listen for. You know, they, and they’ll give you answers they think you want to hear, which are, I won’t go to the game or I’ll work all weekend. Those are not the answers I wanna hear. I wanna hear like, creative, interesting. Maybe I can’t get it done before I go to the game, but I’m gonna, you know, buckle down and I’m gonna ask for help or, you know, those kinds of things are the things that I’m looking for.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, even if they do say, well, look, I’m gonna, you know, skip this or that because, you know, work would be my priority or whatever. I mean, that it, it’s still okay, that’s fine. But this isn’t, this is this. If your idea of solving a problem is just throwing more hours at it, that doesn’t work for me.

Gini Dietrich: Right. That doesn’t work. Right.

Chip Griffin: So, even if you do end up spending that time, tell me about, you know, what are the actual steps that you’re taking? Because you may be willing to pull an all-nighter, but what about the rest of the team? Right. And, you know, how do you go about getting the information that you need and getting it approved in the right way?

And, you know, how do you think about, you know, frankly, which, which corners are okay to cut and which ones aren’t? You know, when you have to deal with a compressed timeframe, you have to be rational and say, okay. It’s not gonna be as perfect as I would like it to be. And, to continue on with the design example, are you okay with that?

Gini Dietrich: Yeah,

Chip Griffin: and I’ve, I’ve worked with some designers who just, you know, they’re like, I just will not give you something that doesn’t meet my standard. I appreciate that you have a high standard, I also have a deadline. Yep. So work with me on this and figure out what we can get done on this time. Yep. And that’s the, that’s the kind of answer that I’m looking for from them.

If it’s, you know, someone who’s, you know, pitching a new outlet or industry that they’re not familiar with, what are the steps that you go through? How do you begin to think about it? And I, again, it’s not so much about the specifics of it, but just making sure that you’re seeing the logic at play.

Yep. In a way that you’re like, yeah, okay, I can, I can see why you made that choice. But definitely don’t fixate Well, I don’t know why you would look at that. I would look at this instead. I mean, because you haven’t had a chance to imbue any of your own thinking to them to bring your own agency training.

But if they can think about how they make those individual steps possible, that’s really what you need to know.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, one of the things that, I’m sure I’ve told this story before, but when we were looking at schools for, at the time, our 4-year-old to go to, to kindergarten, and then on through school and we were interviewing schools and we were trying, Chicago’s a weird way of doing schools, but, so we were looking at, we were interviewing schools.

And every single one of them, so this is eight years ago, said, we focus our curriculum on the humanities and social and emotional intelligence and learning because we don’t know what jobs are going to be available for these kids because of AI and because of how fast technology is changing. So we know that if we put kids out into the world, out into the community, that can solve problems that have high emotional intelligence, that can think logically, that have common sense, that they will be good stewards and can do the jobs that are available. Versus building kids that can do programming or math or science or STEM or whatever happens to be, right. We’re going to put good stewards of the community out there, and I think about that a lot.

And I just read an article this morning that talks about how Anthropic is hiring people with humanities degrees because they have high emotional intelligence. They can think through things, they can read something and absorb it versus just skimming it. All of the things that, those that, that kind of degree teaches you are the things that companies are gonna be looking for.

And it’s the same thing I think for agency owners is that’s exactly it is how do you find the people that can problem solve, that can take in information and use that to make decisions that, you know, are used to high emotional intelligence kinds of things. Versus I know how to logically solve a math problem. or I know how to program or I know how to write a news release. Because AI can do all of those things. So that’s what we really should be looking for and interviewing for is those problem solving skills.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and you’ll find if, if you get good problem solvers, they’ll be confronted with things that, that you never even dreamed up.

So you wouldn’t think to ask in an interview. Right. To figure out if they could do it. But they’re good problem solvers.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: They can figure out how to get there. Absolutely. If they’re not good problem solvers, they’re just gonna sit there and stare at it, or they’re gonna make the radically wrong decision just because it’s the easy way out. I think of a plumber that I had in my house 20 years ago, and we were having an issue with water pressure. And so he came in and he’s looking and we, you know, we’re on a well system here ’cause I’m living rural and they’re trying to figure out, you know, all the tanks and this and that.

And he’s like, well, the solution is you need to put in a larger tank. I’m like, really? That’s, that’s gonna solve my water pressure problem. He said, yeah, that’s, that’s definitely gonna solve it. I’m like, and so I just, I, it didn’t feel right to me. So I sat with him. I said, okay, well walk me through, you know.

Yeah. What we’re doing here and, and so I, I had ’em tell me what all the pipes were and what they were doing, and we get to one and it turns out there’s one that was a filter. And I said, I said, well, what if we just tried changing out that filter and just make sure that it’s not clogged up? Yeah. We could try that.

I guess. I mean, okay. Turned out it was a $10 filter that we needed to replace instead of, instead of like a $1500 water tank instead.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I was gonna say multi-thousand water.

Chip Griffin: But he, you know, he was not of the mindset, you know, go through and diagnose it step by step and follow the path of the water and see where it might be being obstructed so that it’s not getting, because I mean the, the current water tank was showing that it had the right pressure.

So it didn’t really make sense to me that if the tank was showing it had the right pressure, that a larger tank was gonna suddenly change, that it would still be at the same pressure setting,

Gini Dietrich: right?

Chip Griffin: So somewhere between the tank and where it came out of the faucet, it was where it was falling apart.

And so you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta try to hire people that can think that way because it’ll keep things off of your plate. And we always talk here about the importance of not bogging yourself down. And so the other thing you need to keep in mind is if you’re gonna be hiring for problem solving ability, you actually need to let your team do the problem solving.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: You have to. You have to accept that they may not solve it in exactly the same way that you do, but because you’ve hired a team of problem solvers, they will get it done.

Gini Dietrich: Yes.

Chip Griffin: If that happens, you don’t have a lot sitting on your plate, which is better for you. And frankly, it’s better for the employee because they don’t feel like you’re breathing down their shoulder and micromanaging them.

So yes, problem solvers solve other problems other than the ones that they’re setting out to solve.

Gini Dietrich: Yes, they do. Yes, they do. I think the article that you wrote was really good. It walks through some of these, some of these ideas. It also gives some other ideas on how to interview for problem solving, so I’m sure Jen will link to it.

But it was a very good thought provoking article, so thank you.

Chip Griffin: I am always grateful to be able to produce thought provoking pieces, and it’s a particular challenge. I’m always looking to try to figure out how I can make you think too, so. Because you’ve got probably all the same answers that I do on most things.

So

Gini Dietrich: sometimes we disagree on things, but yeah,

Chip Griffin: occasionally. Occasionally we haven’t done it that much. But, but maybe, maybe on the next episode,

Gini Dietrich: maybe.

Chip Griffin: Who knows? We might

Gini Dietrich: never know.

Chip Griffin: Just teasing that next episode. ’cause the next one’s a milestone.

Gini Dietrich: It is a milestone

Chip Griffin: at least. At least if, if Jen’s math is correct.

The next episode is episode 300, so,

Gini Dietrich: woo hoo.

Chip Griffin: Stay tuned for that one.

Gini Dietrich: It’ll be a special one. Special one.

Chip Griffin: As they like to say in YouTube land. Make sure you click the subscribe button.

Gini Dietrich: So you don’t miss an episode.

Chip Griffin: Nope. You would never wanna miss an episode of this.

Gini Dietrich: Never. Mm-hmm.

Chip Griffin: It’s the most fascinating podcast on the interwebs.

Gini Dietrich: It is.

Chip Griffin: So with that, that will draw that to an end this episode of the most amazing podcast ever. I’m Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends except about the quality of this podcast.

Gini Dietrich: Right.